Ericsson's D-15 Analyst Event & ZTE 5G Summit (with Earl Lum)

In this episode of the neXt Curve reThink podcast, Leonard Lee and Earl Lum of EJL Wireless Research recap Ericsson's D-15 Analyst Event and ZTE's 5G Summit which took place in Istanbul, Turkey.

This episode is a cornucopia of international telco insights as Ericsson presents its case and big-picture vision for high-performing, differentiated networks and network APIs, and ZTE lays out its blueprint for the future of 5G and 5G advanced.

Earl & Leonard discuss the following topic that mattered from Ericsson's D-15 Analyst Event and ZTE's Analyst Day:

• Earl provides his overview of ZTE's 5G Summit 2024 (1:45)
• Earl's first impressions of Turkey (3:02)
• Headlines and key takes from ZTE's 5G Summit 2024 (4:05)
• The two-layer 5G spectrum birthday cake (7:34)
• The late 5G adopter advantage (8:40)
• The practical mystery of AI in the network and RAN (11:06)
• Leonard provides an overview of Ericsson's D-15 event (16:32)
• Ericsson's vision of reinventing the telco industry - network APIs (17:20)
• SMO and rApps, the first order accelerator for 5G modernization? (20:53)
• AI and automation of the network (26:43)
• GNP and NewCo JV, the cornerstone of the next phase of the industry (28:24)
• Thinking beyond connectivity (33:26)
• Bringing the ecosystem together (35:01)
• How big is the network API opportunity for operators? (37:22)

Connect with Earl Lum at www.ejlwireless.com. Hit us up on LinkedIn and take part in our industry and tech insights. 

Please subscribe to our podcast which will be featured on the neXt Curve YouTube Channel. Check out the audio version on BuzzSprout - https://nextcurvepodcast.buzzsprout.c... - or find us on your favorite Podcast platform.  

Also, subscribe to the neXt Curve research portal at www.next-curve.com for the tech and industry insights that matter.

Chapters

• 1:45 Earl provides his overview of ZTE's 5G Summit 2024
• 3:02 Earl's first impressions of Turkey
• 4:05 Headlines and key takes from ZTE's 5G Summit 2024
• 7:34 The two-layer 5G spectrum birthday cake
• 8:40 The late 5G adopter advantage
• 11:06 The practical mystery of AI in the network and RAN
• 16:32 Leonard provides an overview of Ericsson's D-15 event
• 17:20 Ericsson's vision of reinventing the telco industry - network APIs
• 20:53 SMO and rApps, the first order accelerator for 5G modernization?
• 26:43 AI and automation of the network
• 28:24 GNP and NewCo JV, the cornerstone of the next phase of the industry
• 33:26 Thinking beyond connectivity
• 35:01 Bringing the ecosystem together
• 37:22 How big is the network API opportunity for operators?

Transcript

[NOTE: This transcript is AI-generated and may contain inaccuracies and misrepresentations.]

Hey everyone. Welcome to this next curve, rethink podcast episode, where we break down the latest tech and industry events and happenings into the insights that matter. I'm Leonard Lee, Executive Analyst at NexCurve, and in this episode, we will be recapping ZTE's big global analyst event. I think that's what it's called.

I'm not quite sure. So we will have Earl confirm the title of that in just a second. And this event took place in Turkey, Istanbul to be exact. And we will also be, recapping Ericsson's D15 analyst event, which took place in Santa Clara just last week, and it's hard to believe. All of this just happened last week.

And, I am joined [00:01:00] by Earl Lum of EJL wireless research. My good friend, how's it going? 

Earl Lum: It's going great. And again, congratulations on your seven year anniversary, Leonard. 

Leonard Lee: Hey, thanks a lot. And I'm so glad that you're part of the journey and the ongoing road ahead for next curve. I love the collaboration we do, man.

It's really cool stuff. Hopefully you're, recovered from your jet lag because you did quite a bit of traveling. Before we start remember please like, share and comment on this episode and subscribe to the Rethink podcast here on YouTube. And on Buzzsprout and take us on the road on your jog and listen to us on your favorite podcast platform.

And with that, Hey, did I get that right? Was it the ZTE global event or? It was their 5G 

Earl Lum: summit and user conference. 

Leonard Lee: Ah, okay. I got that totally wrong. Close [00:02:00] enough. Yeah. Close enough. Well, there were analysts there, right? 

Earl Lum: Yes. Media analysts and. The Turkish government officials, mobile operators from Turkey, as well as from, other regions around, the world.

And yeah, just a big, get together for ZTE to showcase what they're doing in 5G advanced. And we look towards, next year in 2025, when Turkey is going to actually auction off their 5g spectrum. 

Leonard Lee: That's exciting. That's exciting. Goes to show you where some parts of the world are with their 5g adoption and deployment.

Right? So 

Earl Lum: exactly. And I think being a fast follower or being delayed in their 5g. Journey is probably allowed them to really take advantage of what everyone has done and not done and has been successful or not successful, in doing the last [00:03:00] however many years, since we started in 2018, right?

Leonard Lee: Yeah. 

Earl Lum: Yeah. 

Leonard Lee: So what was your impression of Istanbul in Turkey? Uh, 

Earl Lum: Istanbul. Let's get that out of the way 

Leonard Lee: first. 

Earl Lum: Is, it was really cool. It's a very different city and, uh, you know, it's not called Constantinople anymore, but, it's really a very, it is the crossroads of Asia and Europe, literally, because you can go across the Bosphorus and have dinner in Asia and come back to Europe.

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Well, you know, Yeah, it was the capital of the Eastern Roman Empire, right? So yes, has a rich history. And, uh, um, yeah I've heard it's a beautiful, I've never been. So I envy you quite a bit. 

Earl Lum: It's worth going. It was a really cool trip and I wish I would have been able to go to the Erickson event, but you can't be in two places at the same time.

Leonard Lee: This is true. We haven't created clones yet. [00:04:00]

Earl Lum: Exactly. Well, they try. That are neural 

Leonard Lee: linked interfaced and, cloud synced. So you're absolutely correct. Impressions of the event itself and maybe what are some of the big announcements and, headlines that, came out of the event.

Earl Lum: So I think one of the biggest headlines was the demonstration of using 5g and our dual carrier between C band and millimeter wave that ZTE did with Turk cell. 

Uh, 

Earl Lum: they had a 1600 megahertz bandwidth millimeter wave unit coupled with a C band massive MIMO radio. And the downlink speed, is a new record for now of 32 gigabits per second.

Leonard Lee: Hmm. Wow. 

Earl Lum: To a CPE that they had hooked up to a laptop. So, again, are you ever going to need 32 gigs? Not sure. And is that [00:05:00] realistic? Probably not on a daily hourly basis, but it certainly shows the potential, for millimeter wave that's been getting a pretty bad rap here in the U S as of late with some of the, spectrum licenses being returned by Timo and all sorts of other things that have been happening with that band, 

Leonard Lee: Yeah, well, I mean, it's kind of like a global thing, right?

It's like a rationalization of thought to rethinking, of, earlier decisions to put millimeter wave. I think some instances first, right? So right. Interesting. So, , other than the demonstration, what's the intent? I mean, what's this idea of, resurrecting millimeter wave.

Earl Lum: I think from, at least from the Chinese perspective of what 5G advance is, their definition absolutely includes millimeter wave as one of the foundations [00:06:00] 10 gigabits per second, mobility. 

Leonard Lee: Right. And we saw 

Earl Lum: that back at MWC, right? And in Barcelona, where both Huawei and ZTE were talking about that. And how do we get not just sub six gig bands, but how do we get all of these bands, including millimeter wave in a more productive environment and use case?

I think FWA is certainly one of those potentials. But it's also, you know, video broadcasting as you were talking about a little bit at D 15, right? And how can you use the low latency and the bandwidth of some of this spectrum in a way where you're not trying to shoot through trees or buildings or whatever, enable it.

And so. Some of the examples I think, coupled with, risk technology in terms of, intelligent surfaces for millimeter wave and being able to, uh, passive or actively bounce signals around, and not [00:07:00]needing direct line of sight. It has always been a major issue with that band. And I think, this is just some of the potential services that may be offered, as we get to 5g advance.

Is it going to be everywhere? Probably not because it doesn't make sense, but, it could make sense depending on what you're trying to achieve in terms of private networks or again, outdoor FWA types of applications or, high capacity in stadium applications. 

Leonard Lee: Yeah, I mean, I thought I think it always made sense as augmenting.

Right. So, you know, for certain type of use cases or requirements, it made sense, but it wasn't going to be that sort of ubiquitous band that you use, ubiquitously, right. Just simply because of a lot of the, the challenges that's not to say that you can't have novel applications of the spectrum. Um, but.

That, you know, um, it, it was going to take a little bit more than conventional thinking to figure out

Earl Lum: what was it going to be the third layer of that layer cake of spectra, [00:08:00]

Leonard Lee: which 

Earl Lum: is now 

Leonard Lee: more of a candle than it is actually exactly, or many 

Earl Lum: little candles. 

Leonard Lee: It's a birthday cake, right? It's a two birthday cake instead of a bunch of 

Earl Lum: candles.

Leonard Lee: Which is what the Timo. The team of guys, they have a sense of humor. 

Earl Lum: Thank you. But as the uncarrier, uh, but I think again, it's, it's rethinking another tool in the toolkit for the mobile operator. It is spectrum. Spectrum is a valuable resources, their lifeline. And the question is how do they use it?

Effectively in the right application. 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. But you're also making a really interesting point here about, not, maybe being a fast follower or even, a late follower is that you get to see all the mistakes, 

Earl Lum: right? And Turkey was also one of the first countries to completely go four and a half G when they did their LTE deployment, because they were, again, a Uh, a late [00:09:00] adopter of LTE technology.

So they had the advantage of deploying everything with. 4. 5G technology when everyone was still kind of initially only at 4G. 

And I think 

Earl Lum: they're going to try to do the same thing where everyone's at 5G DSS or NSA, and there'll be SA at a minimum and maybe 5G advanced across the majority of the network.

Right. 

Leonard Lee: And, and that creates a leaped frog opportunity. Absolutely. I think that's a dynamic that people should be mindful of. Even as early adopters focusing foundationally on things that are going to, drive ROI. I think that's been like the big challenge with 5G. And I'll attribute, I talk about hype all the time.

I never think it's a good thing. I think it's one of the detrimental dynamics of hype. You exaggerate things and capabilities get too aspirational without paring things down for your business into the [00:10:00] things that are practical and where you can, you can figure out what an ROI is going to be with that investment.

You know, you get in trouble, right? And you end up sending yourself back, so, anyways, it's interesting that you brought that up, because, yeah, we might see some of these later adopters actually leapfrog many, markets where maybe the operators in that market went, headfirst into this without necessarily, think about what they're getting themselves into, you know, right.

Earl Lum: And I think, the whole topic of. Open RAN was discussed, but I don't think it's necessarily a priority, at least from that country perspective in terms of Huawei had their, major event the week before ZTE over there in Turkey, because they're obviously wanting to showcase and make sure that they get their unfair share of whatever.

Awards on [00:11:00] the mobile network, that they can get, relative to Ericsson and Nokia. 

Leonard Lee: What are some other key takeaways? 

Earl Lum: I think some of the, realism issues of 5G advanced, or there were some discussions about 6G, but again, AI was a very big focus. But from the sense of how is it going to be practically used for the mobile operator and how do you efficiently use it is, I think the key in one of the most important things, right?

In terms of are you really going to stick the GPU at every edge site to do whatever native AI ran thing that you're trying to do? Or is it going to be more of how can I create services? using the technology that didn't exist before. And again, a lot of this comes from a very, China perspective in terms of what they've already launched over [00:12:00] there and then what could be realistically ported, outside of China in terms of those types of services.

So there was examples, everything from low altitude drones, and that technology and those services to, enhanced XR. AR types of services, using 5g advanced. And again, a lot of different use cases of monetization, of the technology there, because that's really the key for every operator is if you're going to deploy this technology, how am I going to actually create new value based upon that, uh, investment.

Leonard Lee: So any. Practical tips that were provided or were I think a lot of it was focused 

Earl Lum: on energy efficiency from some of the mobile operators. A lot of it was in terms of I have site modernization. There's still a lot of equipment around the world from the radio perspective that's on these towers and poles.

[00:13:00] And how do I get rid of all of that and integrate that and consolidate everything into a much more efficient site? So from ZTE's perspective, it was all about their ultra broadband radios and their multi band and five band radios and dual and triple band massive MIMO. Systems that they were showcasing there and how that creates additional capacity for the operator, and they had a bunch of, uh, uh, mobile operator partners talking about that.

I think the general tone was at least from the Turkey perspective was, we want to be leading in 5g advance and we want to be also doing whatever R and D on 6g that may be happening down the road. But I think there was. Some also a sense of realism that, Hey, we're going to be deploying this equipment here.

We want to get the best equipment and the best equipment may not be open ran equipment [00:14:00]because we're going to probably be buying a big chunk of this from Huawei and ZTE. 

Leonard Lee: Right. Okay. And is it a turkey thing or a Turkish thing? 

Earl Lum: Turkey, a, I guess is the correct pronunciation. 

Leonard Lee: Okay. 

Earl Lum: Of the country. So I think their national strategy and goal is to be Leading and trying to lead in the technology side.

That's their aspirations. And you know, they achieved that when they went and completely did 4. 5 G nationwide when they rolled everything out. So they have some, I guess, a good history. And capability of doing that. And I think they're aware that they need a lot of fiber to make all this happen.

And so there was a fair amount of discussion about the fiber backbone, how do they modernize their fiber network? Cause they're going to need it for their sites. And. One of the key things that I noticed in surveying a bunch of base stations and [00:15:00] sites, as I always do when I'm traveling is that the majority of the sites that I saw were microwave back halt.

So, uh, that's going to be hard to do. If you really want to do 5g advance, let alone just regular 5g. So it's going to require a ton of fiber that they're going to have to put into the ground at the edge. That doesn't exist today. And how did they do that? Uh, in an efficient way. 

Leonard Lee: Oh yeah. Oh, hmm. Maybe they use IAB 

Earl Lum: possibly, I don't know.

But, uh, I saw a lot of microwave on every tower that I saw, and so that was certainly a concern in that. 

Well, yeah, how many billions of dollars 

Earl Lum: do they need to invest into trench or to micro trench or whatever they're gonna have to do to get fiber to those sites? 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Wow. Okay. Well, those are great insights.

Those are great insights. And so, hey folks, I'm, this is probably, these are probably just like [00:16:00]little nuggets. How many days was this event? 

Two 

Leonard Lee: days. Two days. Yeah. So if you're interested in getting the inside scoop, because this is the outside scoop, Yeah, give Earl a ring and , inquire about his services.

I'm sure that he will drop some serious knowledge upon you and, uh, give you the visibility into what you need to know about what's happening. And what came out of that event. So, hey, now let's talk about the event that you probably also wanted to attend, but couldn't because you were in Turkey, which is the Erickson D 15 analyst event, which took place in Santa Clara.

It's a one day event. And, um, man, all I can say impressions they threw everything in the kitchen sink at the analysts as well as their partners. They had a ton of partners there. And the theme of the. [00:17:00]Event was, I would have to say, pretty broad. It's centered around what they're calling programmatic networks or programmable networks.

And there was also a big emphasis on network APIs. And so they started the day off with Eric Equiden, who kind of teed the topic of Digital transformation, sort of this reinvention of the industry. And so the, sort of this, uh, imperative, the imperative that we have to catalyze the industry, build this ecosystem, or at least foster this ecosystem where.

New value can be created for the telco industry, right? And obviously, uh, a tall order one that may feel a bit nebulous to a lot of folks, because, you know, it is, it is quite visionary in a lot of ways, but then also pretty aspirational, but. Man, so the agenda, they start [00:18:00] off with programmable networks.

They talked about the network APIs, differentiated connectivity, which they sometimes called networks. It generally talks about how can we take a software defined end to end. Network infrastructure and make it programmable, right?

Ideally by elevating things to a cloud native level where now network capabilities can be expressed and exposed through APIs, these things that everyone calls network APIs, which I'm not a really huge fan of because they call the market, the market for a network APIs, but. That's not what you're actually selling.

You're actually trying to sell, expose and monetize network capabilities. Right. And they talked about GMP which is the global network platform, [00:19:00] which they launched, I think about two and a half years ago now. So this thing has been in the works for quite some time, but of course we were in Boston, was it like a two months ago?

Earl Lum: Yeah, two months ago. Yeah, 

Leonard Lee: where they announced NuCo, which is a joint venture. involving 12 operators from North America actually, and they pretty much have a trifecta on the telco majors in North America, South America. Um, Europe and parts of Asia. So, they have, I think about 50%. I think last time we actually have a podcast on this with the details, but I think it's something like 50 or 60 percent of the global subscriber base.

Anyways, it's a big number, right? Just with these operators running some of the most advanced. Um, advanced networks in the non Chinese world, non China [00:20:00] world. And then we also covered things like OSS, BSS, which was actually really interesting. It seemed like a little bit of a side topic, but I think it's really relevant when you start to think about operational modernization.

And then, you know, this is something that I actually talked about with, you Amdocs two years ago, back when everyone was talking about 5g monetization, and I was harping on the fact that we should probably be talking about modernization first, right? Cause you can't, you can't monetize if you don't have anything new to sell and you don't have the capability to actually monetize it.

Right. So that was an interesting. Add or adjacent. I thought it was more of an adjacent topic. But it led to this conversation around the programmable networks as it pertains to the network with S. M. O. And our apps, right? [00:21:00] So, you know, you and I, we've talked a lot about S. M. O. S. And. This actually fast emerging, if not, ramping interest in service management orchestration.

So there was a lot of talk about that. The gentleman Anand Parikh, he's the CEO of Airhop they develop our apps, right? And so one of the interesting things that he said was, They created integration layer. Sound familiar? Yeah. I glipped the glue. Yeah, the glue.

Yeah. It seems like everybody is now creating, you know, their own version of glue, but that's a good thing, right? Because, um, these SMOs are now being positioned as a bridge between not only the, uh, purpose built portfolios or cloud native, what do you want to call it? The stuff that. And the stuff that's already in the network with.

Um, the, the Open RAN compliance [00:22:00] stuff that's being introduced in. So, uh, there's a number of interesting strategies, you know, Adam Ledecky, who, you and I know we saw him at 5G Americas just a couple of weeks ago, right, the week before, and he was there, he sat on like five, he probably like sat on half of the, panels, but he's hilarious.

He cracks me up. Such a practical guy, you know what I'm saying? And yeah, he was talking about how they're continuing to evolve their use of SMO and the importance of its role as kind of like a, like what Anon was talking about this. Integration or interoperability and an enabler.

So it's kind of cool. 

Earl Lum: And I, I think it ties into Erickson's briefing today where they covered their R app ecosystem and everything for their quarterly that they do for analysts. Right. And they went deep into how they're structuring it all and, uh, partners that they have. So [00:23:00] I think it's starting to really, at least from their perspective, Get more momentum.

Leonard Lee: Yeah. And they're, trying to foster that through what would they call it? Is it, um, a hub? They had a name for it, 

Earl Lum: but, uh, you know, it's an open marketplace where there are apps, but the key thing that they said was. You know, anyone wanting to do it has to make a commitment that you're actually going to deliver the R app, right?

You're not just marketing it. So I think that was important. And that was a good way to again, be pragmatic that this portal is not for you to just market your stuff. You have to actually deliver it. Because it needs to be available. 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And which is probably a smart thing. You don't want a bunch of people just jumping on using it as a marketing vehicle.

Right? 

Earl Lum: Right. And I'm [00:24:00] sure they're going to police it to a level where they're going to find the ones that. Just can't deliver or are not able to launch and have the R app be available and fully working and vetted and tested and everything else through their portal. 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Yeah. No, I, and um, it, it's something that's probably gonna take a bit of time, right?

Earl Lum: From a third party perspective, right? I, I mean, yeah, third party, it still exists as whatever, Ericsson's already.

Providing. 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Yeah. And the way I look at it, it is a great target architecture for a Asan, taking things to the next level in terms of a framework. And then if you have these, SMO platforms and tooling that can be based on at least some inkling of a standard.

I mean, all these implementations tend to be [00:25:00] different because you always hear about our app compatibility and portability across different, 

Earl Lum: right. And how does it work with the scheduler, right? 

Leonard Lee: Right, right. Oh yeah. Yeah. That too. There's challenges, but it's moving toward better. And, I think we just have to, as an industry recognize that we don't get too aspirational until we tune into what are some of the more near term.

Less aspirational things that are going to help move the ball. And I, you know, I've always thought that SMO. Has that potential of being an important catalyst for infrastructure modernization because being able to shift and morph your infrastructure as it is. Continuing to serve customers, right?

Right. Is a really tough thing. And so you need to Right, I mean, you can't 

Earl Lum: screw up your live network [00:26:00] while you're doing all this. While it's live How do you evolve it without taking it offline? 

Leonard Lee: But yeah, but the other thing that's really important is It's ability to help you realize new capabilities.

We're talking about these network capabilities. Um, even on top of what you already have today, right? It provides additional flexibility to either drive, energy efficiency or spectrum efficiency across your portfolio with new capabilities that you might not have been able to.

Orchestrate across your portfolio before. So, uh, anyway, so a lot of talk about that. We were talking a lot about that. I don't know. Right. I 

Earl Lum: mean, also to get to some, I mean, Z going back to the ZTE conference, they we're talking a lot about how do you get to level four plus automation in your network and what do you need to do to get to that point?

And it's not [00:27:00] about. It's all about automation, right? When we came out of 5g Americas, it wasn't about AI specifically. It was about automation. 

Leonard Lee: Automation. Yeah. And, you know, I'm glad you're bringing that up because, with all this, chatter about AI, there's a conflation of. AI with automation they're related, but they're not the same thing, right?

Same with autonomy. Autonomy is different levels of. Automation and intelligence. If you want to call it AI, it doesn't necessarily have to be AI for everything. It drives that closed loop of automation, which is autonomous, right? And the degree that you close the loop and take the person out of the loop, that's autonomous.

What are the other things that they brought up? They brought up of course radios, new line of [00:28:00]radios. That was kind of interesting. We had Sachin Katti of Intel get up on stage and talk about some of the new processors coming out of Intel that are.

taking V RAN and CloudRound to the next level. Obviously they have a deep partnership with Ericsson. Yep. Yeah, I mean, they covered so many things. I think for me the big takeaway was, uh, around GMP. I think what they really were trying to do here is give everyone an update on how all the bits and pieces.

Have evolved and moved and progressed, right? Um, but with this set up for positioning new co and GMP as being a cornerstone for this next, um, let's call it the next phase [00:29:00] of the industry. And, you know, uh, I think the whole idea here is. Looking at the network and its evolving capabilities and being able to create large scale, global scale markets for these capabilities, right?

And obviously one intrinsic value is , scale this at a global level across these different, uh, participating operator networks. Right. Okay. Now the thing that became has become very apparent to me is that the opportunity goes beyond the network or connectivity, right?

They've started off with fraud prevention or portfolio of, um, What I call like a network application portfolio for fraud prevention. And underneath that you have a number of [00:30:00] APIs, network APIs. They're Camara based. And for those of you who don't know what Camara is, it's a Linux foundation project that was initiated.

By the Open Gateway Initiative, which was initiated by GSMA, right? Right. Global sponsorship. And if you're curious, yes, the, there are Chinese mobile operators that are part of that, um, initiative as well. And. The mission of Kamara is to specify a standard for these network APIs.

And so there are a few that are related to authentication and, Um, SIM swap and they've been bundled into a solution set. That can be taken by a developer and they can implement it and integrate it as part of their, let's say business application.

And so, a lot of the, these, um, capabilities are being surfaced. They're actually [00:31:00] informational. And so. While I think a lot of us are thinking in terms of the network API is surfacing connectivity related capabilities, right? It, you also have to think of it in terms of the information that can be derived from the network and what sort of non connectivity related applications it can act, they can actually foster, because if you look How the fraud prevention applications are being used.

They're being used in financial, um, the financial industry and it's not for mobile applications. It has nothing to do with connectivity. Right? Right. So the opportunity, I think, looks very different. That's my observation. And while initially you and I have kind of like, oh my gosh, you know, CPAS guys are already doing this fraud detect, you know, fraud prevention stuff.

Well, yeah, sure. [00:32:00] Because Actually Vonage fits up at that level of a, you know, an entity or a party that will, um, that will be leveraging these network APIs. And that's what, Ericsson has been telling us for actually quite some time. 

Earl Lum: Right. And that's their whole key to creating NuCo and the framework and the foundation for actually getting this off the ground.

Right. Right. 

Leonard Lee: And so. impairments aside, the logic is starting to play out, right? And actually, according to what I wrote about not going on three years ago. So this is really super interesting for next curve, right? It's a super interesting topic. And I think Erickson really sees it as a cornerstone play for something. That has the potential to change the industry. And so we'll see how that plays out. I mean, one thing's for certain this is going to take some time how long or how [00:33:00] much they can reign in that timeline will will depend on how quickly this ecosystem forms.

And then and starts to ramp with sufficient gravity and viability, right? Because there's still a lot of questions, but in terms of the construct and the dynamic that they're trying to create to catalyze and reinvent the industry the thinking. It is actually pretty sound. And if you shift away from just thinking about the network as connectivity and these other features and characteristics.

Of the infrastructure, you know, like, for instance, the sensing stuff then you start to think a little bit differently about the opportunity. You know what I'm saying? 

Earl Lum: I think it'll be interesting to see at the end of 2025. What were the expectations that they had and the industry had right? And after it gets established in Q1 of next year, then [00:34:00] how quickly can they be off to the races?

Or what is going to be hurdles that kind of come out of left field that weren't anticipated that they're going to have to address and assuming that all of the 12 initial operators and whoever else signs up, how in sync are they in making sure that every release and drop. Of those packages of the network APIs are on time and, uh, deliver what they're supposed to deliver.

Leonard Lee: Um, and, and so, yeah, all, all of this, I think when you start to get under the covers is going to be quite number one, quite complex. Right. Number two, probably not what you thought. And number three is going to foster a lot of confusion until you start to see the clear evidence of value and structure, which I think Erickson is working on that right now.

I think that [00:35:00] was one of the reasons why they put this event on in Santa Clara at D15. But here, this is what I'll say, man. They brought in some heavy hitters across the CSP and I mean by Cloud Hyperscaler ISV world. The ai, I hate to use that term, AI community or.

Whatever is some big names that showed up and 

Earl Lum: so was it the all star team? 

Leonard Lee: Yeah. Seriously, I mean, I think there were like maybe 15 analysts. Right. Maybe fewer than that. And all these A list technologists and industry leaders and VCs that showed up. So yeah, as a analyst participant, I was pretty impressed.

You know, it was a rare opportunity to, Engage in what I would consider a pretty, you know, relatively intimate setting [00:36:00] with some pretty heavy hitters and Chetan Sharma was there. So this is probably what mobile future forward is like, which he will never invite me to because he knows I'll open up my mouth and, you know, he'll just be so annoyed by that.

So we love you Chetan. So, you know, we don't hate on you. And, um, yeah I think it was a great cross pollination of ideas and exposure given the, not only the, partner participants, But also that engagement with the analyst community, but I think there's a, there's a pretty steep learning curve.

There's, there's a learning curve that we all have to go through with this, but it's pretty clear that there's been a lot of thinking that's gone into this. It's now going to be a matter of clarification, making sure everyone can kind of understand these [00:37:00] progressive ideas. And then proving that these, uh, these ideas are feasible and viable at the end of the day.

Right. And so, it's going to be interesting journey, but yeah, it's going to be a one that's going to take a bit of time and hopefully there's going to be some moments and opportunities to accelerate things, but we just have to, we have to just see. Right. 

Earl Lum: So from your perspective of what you heard and were able to have these.

Intimate conversations with if you look at it from a mobile operators perspective, and whether it's AT& T or whoever, as they're looking at all of these roads and paths that they can take, they're at a fork right now, or which direction do we go? And we have a bunch of different things that we could be doing.

This is one of them. And is it going to take away or, supplement what they're trying to do in the network slicing side where they can monetize, [00:38:00] assuming that they're on SA, right, to have a much more potential faster way to monetize some of the technology that's already been implemented into their network while they're waiting for this to percolate and actually gain momentum.

Or how do you see, the priority of this from a mobile operator's perspective? 

Leonard Lee: Well, for the, I think for most operators, it's going to be kind of a, it's like FWA. It's a no brainer if you can do it, you know what I'm saying? And if you can access it if your network is capable of participating, right?

You have your OSS, BSS and your operational systems and financial systems that can support it. Support engagement and fulfill all the requirements and obligations of participation. It's it's almost like a no brainer, right? It's. It's new channels of revenue that you can anticipate. I think the big question though, [00:39:00] is how, how big is that opportunity and how easy is it to actually interface with that, you know, let's say a GMP exchange or platform and do that with the least amount of headache.

Because, you know, integration always costs, right? And, you know, exactly. So, the commercials are usually not as simple as you might think. And there may be some system level integrations that you have to do that will take some resources. But again, Um, one of the things that I think is the idea or a tenants of value for GMP is going to be providing that level of scale, right?

Hopefully it's economic scale because you know, it's not, if you're an operator and you want to expose your, your network to, to, a market that may not be comprised of subscribers who are on your network. Well, um that might cost, that might [00:40:00] be a. Tough to do on your own, right?

You can, I guess, create your own marketplace and say, Hey, anybody wanna code to this stuff? And develop applications on top of our exposed network, capabilities that can be a significant effort. And you know, obviously there are companies out there, ISVs that are trying to help and do help customers.

Set up those types of let's say internal market places, but can you get that scale? Right? And I think really what is the headline takeaway here is that with the NucoJV, they've brought tremendous scale. 

Earl Lum: Exactly. And it needed something, it needed an organization and some mechanism to create that scale.

And I think it'll be again, interesting once everything gets stood up in Q1 as we're hoping and then to see how does it come out of the [00:41:00] gates and what is that first tranche of solutions 

that 

Earl Lum: are going to make it essentially a turnkey for Avonage or anyone else, to then package. And then put out there to the developer community.

Leonard Lee: Yeah. And in the meantime, I think, the new co organization as well as Eric's and are going to have a interesting time developing proper awareness about what this thing is all about. I think it's, not that easy to grasp, especially if you start to delve a little bit into the details you know what I'm saying? Yes. Is 

Earl Lum: that going to be really shouldered by Ericsson then to make sure that story is told correctly as opposed to, is there then going to be a representative from NuCo itself to tell that story or who's telling the story out there to the developers and to that next layer?

To utilize these in the best possible way and to [00:42:00] really fully understand what are you getting access to 

Leonard Lee: or the other trick is how to get the developers not to even have to care. They just know how to access the benefits. And that may exactly, is it just, I just checked, 

Earl Lum: I just checked the box and it's enabled and I move on to the next thing that I have to worry about.

Leonard Lee: Yeah, 

Earl Lum: well, yeah, uh, ideally it should be that simple, but it's not going to be, 

Leonard Lee: but you know what, you missed out. That's all I gotta say. And you're going to say the same. 

Earl Lum: I wish I could have been there and you missed out in Turkey. So we both had a great time and we missed out. 

Leonard Lee: Well, you know, see, that's the cool thing.

You can be on the podcast that we were covering both bases. And, that's what, uh, from the radio to the Rick is all about. And so why don't we call it an episode? What do you think? 

Earl Lum: Sounds good. 

Leonard Lee: You're good. Right. Okay. Hey, thanks man. For [00:43:00] keeping our audience here up to date on, the big happenings in the telco universe.

And so, thank everyone for sticking around. Hope you found this episode enlightening. And if you'd like to connect with Earl Lum, he is at www. ejlwireless. com. You can hit him up on LinkedIn. You can also hit me up on LinkedIn. And you can take part in our industry and tech insights that matter, and please subscribe to our podcast, which will be featured on the next curve YouTube channel, check out the audio version on bud sprout, or.

Find us on your favorite podcast platform. Also subscribe to the next curve research portal at www dot next dash curve. com for the tech and industry insights that matter. And with that Earl, thanks. See you next